Moving forward from our last gathering
Well, this past Sunday some GREAT stuff happened. All of us together wrestled with foundational questions about the nature of God (judgment and wrath? does he speak today and how?), the veracity of Scripture in regard to hearing from God and sharing prophetic words, and about the nature of being in relationship with this God. Whether we knew it or not, some of our core assumptions and outlooks on the Christian life are being exposed and purposefully examined. That is why this past Sunday was FANTASTIC. Already, the fruit of this prophetic word in the life of the church is top-notch. I believe we are closer to the heart of God than a month ago, and that the best lies ahead.
Over the next few weeks, you’re going to see many of the questions raised this past Sunday addressed in a series of blog posts here as well as some more formal and informal discussions/teaching on Sunday mornings. In two Sundays, we will get a chance to look directly at New Testament passages on prophecy, but before that happens, we want to make room for many of you to comment: what’s your experience with prophecy, and what has the Lord taught you to date? Feel free to go ahead and post a comment anonymously or with your name.
Before I close this posting off, I wanted to embed the discussion of prophecy a bit more in larger context. Most of us react to the word “prophecy” or “prophet” with a measure of fear either because of our experiences of abuses [false prophets] or because of our Western discomfort with the supernatural in general (I’ll share my experience in a comment below). But despite our confusion, discomfort or even skepticism, prophecy remains something that is of critical importance in our relationship with God and the Scriptures. If you did a word search for prophet[s], prophecy, prophesy, or prophetess, how many times do you believe they would come up? My latest search found a variation of the word used in 583 passages of Scripture, 190 of them in the New Testament alone. What does this tell us? If nothing else, that prophecy is a big piece of Scripture itself as far as content or mode of communication. This should come as no surprise to us given that there are books of the bible and an entire genre of Scripture called prophecy: all the Old Testament books from Isaiah to Malachi. The Hebrews [back then and today] actually demarcate all of the Old Testament outside of the first five books of Moses [Genesis to Deuteronomy called the Pentateuch or Torah] as “the prophets,” so included in their estimation of what is called prophecy is everything from Joshua to Malachi. So their phrase “the Law and the Prophets” covers ALL Old Testament Scripture. All this to say that prophecy comprises a large portion of biblical revelation in which we need to have some level of trust, comfort and understanding as followers of Jesus Christ.
This is why it’s VERY GOOD for us to be asking these questions about how God spoke to His people in the Old Testament and how He continues to speak to His people in our period called the New Testament as well. May I offer an action point that will help the curious journeyman or woman? Try reading one of the Old Testament prophetic letters — I’m reading Isaiah 1-20 now in my G3. And as you read it, ask the Lord some of your questions about His character, His judgment-mercy, His redemptive heart for the world, and about the place of our intercession and obedience in all of it. Ask Him to show Himself to you, and ask for an open mind. Many actually find a different picture of God than the caricatured wrathful and judgmental God. And in fact, many view the prophetic genre as rival to the poetic genre in containing some of the most beautiful and magnificent pictures of God in the entire bible. I imagine that this exercise of reading the prophets in such a way, repeated over time, may be more illuminating than listening to some long-winded guy talk for an hour about it at BayLight on Sunday morning : ).
Our initial journey and searching may take on the form of “research” or desire for “proof” or “validation,” but I believe at journey’s end awaits a God who is THRILLED to meet His children in a deepening and life-transforming way. Thrilled, to be journeying with you all. Mike.
September 11th, 2008 at 8:50 am
My sense on Sunday was that people were not doubting or confused about the nature of God so much as wondering about the validity of this very specific word.
September 12th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
To further clarify the previous posting, I did not get the impression that people were doubting that God can work through prophecy in today’s world; rather there were doubts about the validity of this specific prophecy of calamity. I raise this issue because of the proposed focus of the sermon this upcoming Sunday. The proposed focus on “questions on prophecy” is valid, but I’m not sure if it really speaks to the core concern, as described above. Perhaps nobody can….
September 12th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Thank you for the clarification. Your answer here “Perhaps nobody can…” reveals that we’re coming at it from differing points of view.
In my mind, they are connected. How do we know how to test the “validity” of prophetic words? My point of view is that without a biblical framework for understanding prophecy in general and how it was used, abused, not used, and weighed, we are left with no guide at all outside of subjective experience that is usually, in the West, tilted toward skepticism.
What we would be interested in hearing in forums like these is the reason why you feel doubt, why you feel hope, some of the things God is revealing to you as you pray about it, some of the weighing criteria you are using that has been helpful or not helpful. Contributions like these open up the communication lines and are helpful for the whole church in processing.
So I make a plea to all who read this to be part of God’s plan for discipling our church by contributing your internal thoughts here.
And to the anonymous poster, if you’d like to talk more in person about any of this, I’d love to grab coffee or lunch to talk more.
September 12th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
That last comment was by me, Mike. Let me take this moment to lay my cards on the table for all to see. And any of you can respectfully disagree, but as you will see later, my hope is that our process of seeking is the same — even if our conclusions are different.
I have heard and prayed many hours over this prophetic word over the last few months. And as Sophia urged us on Sunday, I am taking a step of faith to trust that it is true because I love God and believe that this word is in concert with how we works and because I believe the piece about the word that God wants to bring about a big harvest here in the big area through it all.
I have cleaned out my garage to store supplies. I am scheming non-kooky ways to help my loved ones in San Francisco and my neighbors and school communities get disaster-ready. Whether or not the prophetic word is true, this is a good and loving thing for me to do.
The word has had the exact fruit that it’s supposed to have: I have woken up. I pray daily for not-yet-Christians by name and house in my neighborhood and social circles. I have been prayer-walking Sunnyvale and my neighborhood every other day and plan to do so in the city of SF with the Kuos. I have prayer walked Castro school and will continue to do so. I have become a volunteer chaplain with the sunnyvale department of safety. I have joined up with city officials in Mountain View and Sunnyvale in helping at-risk teens — forming relationships with people in influence in preparation. The organic church planters all over the Bay area I hang out with, we are preparing by praying walking the entire tri-cities of the Bay and also by training church planters in the area with a conference this October. I am talking to local pastor friends about the word to hear if they are ready.
I feel more connected to the world around me than I ever before have. I am praying more now than I ever have. And my readings in Isaiah and 1 and 2 Thessalonians have been rich and motivated as I search to see if this word is consistent with how God has moved throughout the bible. The word has brought life to my prayer life, my Scripture reading and my relationships.
The fruit of this word has been great for me in reinforcing what I call FIRST THINGS: love God, love neighbors, disciple nations. And since fruit is a litmus test in weighing, it reinforces with me that this word is from the Lord in a way that previous disaster or apocalyptic proclamations were not as they led their adherents to self-preserve — not other-preserve. And it is a reinforcing process: the place I am in spiritually has made me more open to hearing and discerning.
Now, I would be happy … no thrilled if disaster didn’t come. I wish destruction on no one. And I pray dearly that it doesn’t happen when I’m in Europe and India this October-November. But at the same time I believe by faith that it would take something big to get the attention of the church and of the world — it always did with every “day of the Lord” visitation of God in biblical history. And I love and know the Lord enough that His heart is to bless the Bay area –not destroy it. If He wants it to happen, then I will by faith believe, respond and be glad that it did — even if Leslie is left alone with the family when it happens.
The disaster part, to me, is not the central piece. And I wish we wouldn’t get tripped up on it. The central piece is that Jesus is knocking on the door of the church and the Bay area and saying, take me seriously. Wake up from the slumbers of complacency and live with the urgency that every follower of mine must have. This core piece — in my assessment — is bedrock gospel and we find dozens and dozens of scripture that would sing the same note.
So to completely lay my cards on the table, I don’t care if BCC doesn’t fully prepare for the disaster piece. Those of us who do believe it can prepare together off-line and would respect others’ prayerful decisions that ended with a different conclusion. But what would make me absolutely weep is if our BCC family scoffed at the word and never prayed or sought God on the matter — ignoring the call to wake up.
This is where I am at now after several months of processing. Please take a risk and pitch in as well — sharing where you are and how God is helping you process.
September 12th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I agree with the first commenter-on both comments. Also, one reason why I have some doubts is that some of the other people with similar prophecies have very questionable ministries (like IHOP). If you’re sure that the word is valid, I don’t see why you would have to rely on people whose own credibility is so shaky.
Also, I don’t think it’s fair to encourage anonymous posts to try to get people to open up and then call them out, first in a friendly way by inviting them to coffee and then later by saying, “take a risk and pitch in as well…”
And I don’t think it’s right to imply that people who don’t believe the word also never prayed or sought God on the matter. I’m not sure that’s what you’re saying but your last post could be taken that way.
September 12th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
I apologize if my intent was construed in such a way. I didn’t mean to call anyone out, but was requesting from our church family that people share feelings and their personal processing for our greater good. I also was not trying to imply that no one is praying about it outside of those who believe it. I’m not even sure that the “it” that we’re speaking of is the same thing. That’s why more discussion is better than less discussion. And discussion is what I am seeking to encourage — though it seems that I may be doing it clumsily.
Your comment on IHOP is a good example of how we as a church can go deeper in the discussion by people’s contributions that give the opportunity to get on the same page. I’m not sure where you got that info on IHOP as a questionable and non-credible ministry; [the credibility of IHOP is another discussion altogether that is not worth detailing here] but this presents an opportunity to clear some misunderstandings about who is being “relied” on.
I have already written more than I have wanted to, so I will keep this as short as I can. Here’s how it happened. Leslie got the initial word; she confirmed it with other prophetic people in the church. They met together a few times and prayed about it and were in general agreement. There were at least seven prophetically gifted people who were consulted in the process and checked off on it.
After that, we discussed it among the staff and COT. These leaders of the church weighed in and agreed that this word needed to be shared. In the process of it all, we discovered that many were also on board with it throughout the Bay area and nationally, internationally. IHOP was one of those groups. So were people in Taiwanese circles of one BayLighter’s family, so were a whole network of church planters, as well as a large group of people in the SF – 600+ that had a large variety of group leaders, including the leader of YWAM. Enough people in California believe it such that they have had large prayer meetings like the one in SF in Sacramento, LA, and one coming in November in the San Diego Padre stadium. Peter confirmed at least two more churches in the bay area, Church on the Hill (a solid evangelical church in San Jose) and Cathedral of Faith. We believe there are more that we will discover in due time.
So to say that IHOP is the main piece of this does not quite accurately describe what’s happening here. It started locally, was confirmed by our leadership, and is continuing to be confirmed by others the more we ask around.
But who believes it or not shouldn’t be the primary reason why we as individuals choose to accept or reject it. My hope is that this Sunday, we will have a greater idea from the Scriptures on how to proceed.
I hope this was both helpful and fair. If you feel that it is not, feel free to flag me down this week and let me know.
This stream is not quite turning out the way I hoped it would in that I am talking way more than I wanted to. I will be fading out of discussion on this thread. If any others care to share their thoughts and feelings, please do so as well to help us process where we go from here.
September 12th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
wow! hey guys, i have to say i love the passion and the questioning.
i’d like to comment on my personal experience and thoughts about this prophetic word…
it’s interesting how becoming a Christian is a leap of faith. to believe in Jesus and his miracles is a leap of faith is it not? personally, when i first became a Christian i had many doubts about the bible, but i saw how God worked through people and lived their lives with grace, mercy, kindness and love. seeing and receiving that grace and mercy from others who could have easily judged me is powerful. this is where i saw the realness of jesus.
so….jesus is real to me. the holy spirit fills us…each of us.
now, in terms of the prophetic word, i believe in prophecy. i believe that Jesus can speak to us, some more clearly than others. i believe that prophecy is used by Jesus to speak through people here on earth to encourage those of us who may not hear so clearly. the key to me is that prophecy is used to encourage us believers in our walk.
now, i also believe that we each need to test a prophetic word given to each of us with the Lord himself. we need to confirm in our hearts that it is true. if we believe that the prophetic word doesn’t encourage us or speak to us or make sense in our lives than we have the choice to ignore it or discount it. also, this doesn’t mean that it the prophetic word may speak truth into someone else’s life though.
through this whole process, the important point to determining the validity of a prophetic word given to each of us is a private matter, between ourselves and the Lord himself. to me, the validity of the prophetic word is not based on questionable ministries or individuals who we feel our questionable, but in Jesus himself.
for me, the prophetic word has encouraged me to spend time in prayer with the Lord and grow closer to him.
just thought i’d share my own thoughts.